Tempers Ball

Subtitle: Why Biden wears a t-shirt that says "I are with stoopid"

When Bush finds what I think was a good compromise position -- becoming the first president to fund stem cell research, including embryonic stem cell research on existing lines, and putting in place a special set of funding for development of alternatives to the use of embryonic stem cells formed by destruction of embryos -- he is painted as an anti-science religious extremist.

Obama then to great fanfare holds a press conference overturning what was labelled as the Bush "ban" on embryonic stem cell research -- a misnomer if I ever heard one -- and saying he wouldn't let politics get in the way of science, blah blah blah.

Then 2 days later he signs a bill that...drum roll, please...

explicilty bans federal funding of any "research in which a human embryo or embryos are destroyed, discarded, or knowingly subjected to risk of injury or death."

the story

That'll teach 'em not to read what they are planning on signing. That must have been buried in with the 8000+ earmarks somewhere that were just so last year's business.

Anyway, I almost find it humorous in the extreme, even though there's frankly nothing really funny in the vast spending spree that is going on.

So does this make Obama an anti-science nut who is implementing his own explicit ban on such funding, or just an amateur and an amiable dunce?

The White House tries to explain.

the lame excuse

The explanation is actually not a bad one, but I think they came up with it after the fact. They claim that new lines could be created privately, and then research on them funded for the activities taken after the destruction of the embryos, but I think that is at odds with the language of the legislation -- where is states that:

SEC. 509. (a) None of the funds made available in
this Act may be used for

(1) the creation of a human embryo or embryos
for research purposes; OR

(2) research in which a human embryo or embryos are destroyed, discarded, or knowingly subjected to risk of injury or death greater than that allowed for research on fetuses in utero under 45 CFR 46.204(B) and section 498(B) of the Public Health Service Act (42 U.S.C. 289g(B)).

(B) For purposes of this section, the term "human embryo or embryos" includes any organism, not protected as a human subject under 45 CFR 46 as of the date of the enactment of this Act, that is derived by fertilization, parthenogenesis, cloning, or any other means from one or more human gametes or human diploid cells.

Reading that, I think the administration's explanation fails. If there is research to be funded on stem cell lines created by private funding in which embryos are destroyed, then I think that falls under item #2 regardless of who pays for the destructive act itself.

It does not matter the substance of what is supported it only matters how it is framed in the media
Reb have been losing the framing for a while now
Obama is continuing rendition and wiretaping and many other things but it is being framed as a change so the masses cheer that the issues are being presented differently

Damn near choked on my timmies...priceless Isi, priceless

Exsqueeze me, baking powder? What in the blue blazes are your 'timmies'?

timmies = coffee

Isi,
I saw that this morning and even though it's almost as funny as shit if it wasn't so sad(the freakin' budget bill is so loaded with crap that no one read the damn thing)I agree with Grunt that this whole argument has already been framed as one of those Christian conservative vs. Enlightened liberal issues which if one only paid attention to a small part what is going on I guess that could be true....I'm sure this will further enhance that perception.

.....anyway, we all know Obamas spiel on keeping morality out of science is just fodder for the masses. While supporting federal dollars towards embryonic stem cell research(private dollars, btw, have gone to non-embryonic research mostly which should tell where most of the promise is)he tells us that cloning is "wrong"...in the same speech nonetheless....he

I think Obama and a Republican Congress may be the best thing to happen to the US in a long, long, long time.

I would vote for Obama if he had a Republican Congress.

And with reckless spending like it is now ... It won't be long.

I'm having my doubts that you'll get the chance, or if you do, it won't count for much. I've been seeing on the news, where even some blacks are starting to make rumblings about him being only a one termer. His ratings may still be high now, but lets see where they'll be a year from now. My money is on them tanking.

Tim Hortons?

But more on topic... I've listened to, and read just enough about the subject, to not really understand the neuaunces about what it is the government doesn't want funded. But what ever it is, I know they are doing it at the University down the road from me. The only thing is, is that they had to build and equip two seperate facilities. I think even the staff/s have to be seperate. One with private dollars, where they do whatever it is they wish to do, without government oversite. And the second, funded with government dollars, where they comply with whatever it is the government wants.
Edit: If I'm not mistaken, I believe they can't even share information, or brain storming sessions.

Pretty silly if you ask me. Seperating, and seperatly funding, the monkeys you are asking to invent the wheel. Either you want them to invent something, or you don't, but whatever.

QD -- sounds like there's plenty of private funding, so why waste taxpayer dollars setting up a second organization just for the opportunity to do so?

Because isi the current admin believes Government is always the answer

Well actually Grunt, this all happened under Bush. And what I gathered from NPR, they were hopefull to be joining both programs togethere. I would think, that clearly, they (the faculty) are disappointed by this decsion.

Isi, this is pretty exciting technology, one of the fastest growing from what I understand. Honestly though, the idea of scientists scraping embrionic cells out of womens wombs, is disturbing to me. As is factory mass production of petre dish assymbly lines with DNA material. It raises lots of red flags and questions for me. Like when does life truely begin, and where does the line of unethical manipulation lay at.
However, as I said before, it does hold incredable promise. I know for my son, a development where we could successfully grow white brain cells and get them to do what it is they do. Could possibly be curative for my son's cerebal palsy and retardation.
(Chris has 100% of his "gray" matter, which is where we store information, and you can't get it back. The "white" matter, which Chris is missing about 30% of, acts like... insulation on the electrical wiring in your brain. Those cells could in therory be restored)
So wether or not government should be funding this, I have to admit that I have a very personal bias in favor for it.

But regardless of if we should or shouldn't be funding it with public dollars. I see it as yet another example of our social funding being done in a terribly wastefull manner. Almost on the high end scale of criminally stupid.
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Another example of where Federal dollar intrusion into State affairs, has screwed things up.
California developed a program to send persons with handicaps, to go back to school for job retraining. Anyone with disabilities could apply, but they only took the most promising (read least hadicapped) canidates. It had a 60% success rate. The Feds offer to help fund the program, but with a caveat. All funding must be distributed equally amongst all that applied, or funding must go to the most grieviously disabled first. California agree'd and took the money, now the program has a 90% failure rate.
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You know, seriously... while I am in principle, apposed to funding of "bridges to nowhere". I am also willing to go along with the voice of the people. Cause what the hell, thats what this grand experiment is all about. But it infuriates me when we fund things in a stupid manner.

A "bridge to nowhere", 10 year project, $10 million funding. Instead of saving to build, we issue bonds at 6% so we can eat our cake now. Except it aint really so sweet, when you consider that $10 mill * 6%= $600,000 interest. $600,000 * 10 years = $6 million total interest.
Using that math, if we were funding 5 "briges to nowhere" and saved the money, we could have built 3 more bridges. And if we had loaned out that money, in the form out micro-loans. And instead making interest payments like we do now, were receiving those interest payments ourselves, we could have funded another 3 bridges besides

Criminally Stupid funding of "bridges to nowhere" = 5 bridges
Intelligent funding of "bridges to nowhere" = 11 bridges

Tell me which makes more sense.

::shrugs:: while I will not be drawn into an abortion debate here, I applaud what he did, I wish the last moron had had the guts.

I support stem cell research. I whole heartedly believe in it. I want my friend to dance again on two whole legs. But those cells can be harvested from many places and do not need to come from embryos.

the thing is pretty much everyone supports stem cell research
and it has had government funding
it was only a question of where the stemcells came from

Actually, I worked for the NFRW and you would be amazed at how many Republicans do not support stem cell research in any form and consider it playing God.

Thats another one of my problems with it. People in their laboritories doing wierd ass shit, and nobody asking first if we should.

See, Grunt? The idea isn't just where they come from.

I respect your opinion, QD, but if it means Sylandra gets two good legs, we should.

I hear ya Maven. If Chris could have a normal fuctioning brain, I'm on board as well.

Nutcases on one side does not excuse idiocy on the other.

Yep, timmies =Tim Hortons coffee Lare..

Forgot some of you dun speak Canadian.

If that were true, why would the scientists working on stem cell research want to use embryo's?

Nagash research seems to be focusing more on adult stem cells now as you can make the treatment from a persons own cells
no more cell rejections from an embryonic donor
contrary to liberal dogma there was never a ban on embryonic stem cell research
just on creating new lines with government money

The Democrats aren't liberals, demmit!

in our system they represent the liberal view hehe
damn euros